FIRST MINISTER for Wales Mark Drakeford is a passionate believer in devolution and the strength of the collective within Britain to be wielded for the common good.

He also believes in using positive arguments for Britain, rather than the negative messages used in Project Fear during the Scottish independence referendum.

“I want to go on making a positive case for what I think is the best of both worlds — assertive devolution in which we use the powers we have to promote the interests of Welsh people, as I think we have during the coronavirus crisis.

“But also for Wales to draw on the strength of being part of a successful United Kingdom.”

We discussed the TUC warning of the dangers of mass unemployment as the furlough scheme is due to end on October 31. Drakeford wants it extended, but in a modified way to protect jobs and business.

“It is incumbent on the Conservative government to find a successor to the furlough scheme, as the current scheme is not what we need in the future.

“Lots of people are back in work but there are sectors of our economy which can be successful in 2021, if we can get them through this year.

“A cliff-edge end to the furlough scheme will put a stop to businesses that otherwise could have been successful.

“I am completely with the arguments being put by the devolved governments together and the Labour front bench in Westminster for a successor to the furlough scheme that focuses on those sectors of the economy that still cannot reopen and to get them through the next difficult period.”

In a backhanded criticism of Chancellor of the Exchequer Rishi Sunak, Drakeford explained that although Sunak has talked about using innovative ways to continue to support the economy he has not given any detail.

“I wish he would share a bit of his innovative thinking with us so businesses in Wales can prepare for whatever help may come their way.”

Drakeford is candid that by itself Wales does not have the economic firepower to do everything that is needed.

“We will use whatever powers and capacity we have. But it has to be done alongside and with the co-operation of an active UK government, not one that simply says the scheme has finished and that is that.”

During his leadership campaign before he became First Minister the former professor and social worker had set out an ambitious green agenda to take advantage of the physical resources Wales enjoys of wind, tidal and solar energy sources.

I asked Drakeford whether the economic toll of dealing with the pandemic had dented his environmental plans and he was bullish in his response.

“We have to think of this as an opportunity, even in the dark days, we have got to find ways of creating a future which emphasises our own strengths and natural resources.”

He is clear that even in the bleak days of the coronavirus pandemic there have been positive lessons to learn.

“We have to think of all this as a chance to make inroads and progress, rather than as an impossible barrier.”

Unlike Johnson’s government’s exhortations to get public servants back into Whitehall offices, Drakeford does not want that for Wales.

“In our Welsh government headquarters building in Cathays Park we have some 2,000 members of staff who would normally travel into Cardiff using private transport. We do not want to go back to that.

“Working remotely and from home and creating hubs closer to where people live is an important environmental and green agenda we want to take out of this experience and when we talk about recovery, reconstruction and the sort of jobs we create and the type of economy we want to come out of it.”

I asked the First Minister to flesh out what opportunities he means.

“We are going to need to create jobs for many people in Wales, young people in particular, and to bridge [the space] between where the economy is today and where we hope it will be in the future.

“There is real scope to create those jobs in the environment, in biodiversity — putting right the damage that has been done to the natural environment of Wales.

“So when we talk about job creation we will definitely put our issues and environmental justice at the heart of that.”

I had already mentioned the physical environmental advantages Wales has and Drakeford was clear that his government would be prioritising this in the coming years.

“We are working hard to bring British government back to the table in relation to the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon scheme.

“They talk about having ‘shovel-ready’ projects to bolster the economy in these dark days,” he says and Drakeford is clear that the Welsh government will be pushing this renewable energy project hard.

“We are pushing ahead a programme inside the Swansea City deal which is based in Pembroke Bay and Milford Haven, which is a very important part of that renewable energy agenda.

“So there are a whole series of ways in which we make the progress we want to see in creating an economy for Wales which is sustainable, works to our strengths and offers a future for the parts of Wales where the economy has been a struggle to maintain.”

I asked how much of his original vision for the economy and environment will now be translated into Welsh Labour’s manifesto for next year’s Welsh Parliament election.

“We have had to slim down our programme for government during this Assembly term because of coronavirus, but we have not abandoned it.”

The First Minister explains that there is a core to his government’s programme which includes some of the projects we have discussed in the interview which Labour will continue to push.

“But then some of these ideas are inevitably in manifesto territory now which we will put to the people of Wales to demonstrate to them that the next election is not a choice between change and the status quo.

“The Labour Party in Wales does not represent the status quo. We represent change, but it is a choice of change. What sort of change do you get if the Tories are in charge in Wales, as well as Westminster — a truly horrifying prospect.

“Or is it the change you get with a Labour government with a progressive agenda determined to use the levers of government in Wales to do the sorts of things in Wales we have long supported?”