“NOBODY votes Labour to be tough on immigration,” Stand Up to Racism’s Sabby Dhalu tells me in the Morning Star’s new Youtube studio — aka the office.  
 
“Why would you vote for them if you want to ramp up deportations when you’ve got Reform, Nigel Farage, and the Conservative Party?” she asks.
 
Too right. If you want fascist policies, you’ll vote for the fascists. Not so-called “centrism.” And what’s so centrist about supporting the Israeli government’s Gaza genocide, punishing asylum-seekers and continuing many of the Tories’ worst policies, anyway?
 
Sorry, I’m ranting. It’s just that the Labour government has been so much worse than I’d expected. I’m eager to know if Dhalu shares my frustrations.
 
“I think there’s room for improvement,” she says, laughing.
 
They responded reasonably well, she says, last summer to the riots that spread across Britain on a wave of far-right misinformation and conspiracy theories, following the murders of three girls in Southport.
 
“The swift convictions and sentencing was good and helpful at the time. But what I thought was weak was not calling out the Islamophobia and tackling that head on.
 
“You had mosques very much in the firing line. They were a key target of the fascist and racist riots. But obviously not uniquely. Anyone black or anyone that looked visibly non-white were targeted.”
 
I wonder what Dhalu thinks of Labour’s recent videos glorifying its deportation flights and immigration raids on nail salons, bars and kebab shops.
 
“It’s a big mistake,” she says. “People don’t vote Labour for that. People vote Labour to make them better off.
 
“Most Labour voters are generally anti-racist, I would say. Most want a human rights approach to refugees, and probably agree with safe passage for asylum-seekers.
 
“Their approach is fundamentally wrong. Labour shouldn’t concede to what is essentially a racist agenda. But also, from the point of view of self-interest and self-preservation of the Labour Party, it’s not going to win them any votes.
 
“They’re probably giving more votes to Reform UK because the more attention they draw to deportations of refugees, the more attention they draw to that issue, which actually, Reform UK and Nigel Farage would outperform them on.
 
“So, I would urge Labour to champion a more human-rights based approach. And also, Labour should be championing our diverse and multicultural society and saying, Britain’s a nation built on waves of immigration, from the Huguenots, to Jewish immigrants, to Irish immigrants, to more recent immigrants in the post-war period.
 
“They’ve all contributed massively to our economy, to our society and also culturally in ways that we just take for granted.”
 
There has been a fair bit of political and media attention on the kids who took part in the riots last year. Personally, I think some of them probably were there to rail against foreigners — considering Britain’s background racism and bigotry, it wouldn’t be surprising. But some had probably just stumbled upon a ruckus, were bored shitless — thanks to the disappearance of public space, etc — and were excited by the chaos.
 
You could fill this paper with theories on this issue. But, the more important question, I think, is what can we do to reach those kids who were there because of hate? How can we win them over to anti-racism?
 
“Well,” says Dhalu, “I think there are two things.
 
“I think one, you really need a progressive political party or movement that actually champions making people better off. Without that, you won’t be able to defeat the far right, because that is a breeding ground for racist and fascist movements.
 
“You can have a strong anti-racist campaign alongside that, that actually talks about the contribution different cultures and communities have made to Britain.
 
“And things like Rock Against Racism, making anti-racism cool and racism very uncool, I think that sort of thing is quite important.  
 
“Although I’m just not sure bands these days are as cool as they were back then,” she says laughing. “Probably showing my age a bit there. Maybe musicians are probably to the right of where they were in the ’70s.”
 
Bring back Rage Against the Machine!  
 
“I would say it’s footballers that have done that in the last few years,” Dhalu says. “You know, championing anti-racism, fighting the Tory government, taking the knee.
 
“I mean, people were talking about the England football team as though they were the official opposition,” she says, referring to Marcus Rashford — then Manchester United goal machine, now less so at Aston Villa — campaigning brilliantly for free school meals in 2020.
 
“I think that sort of thing does reach out to the majority of the population. We just need someone to show a bit of leadership.”
 
Our conversation turns to the US, and Tesla CEO Elon Musk’s infamous Nazi salute at President Trump’s inauguration rally in January. Will far-right goons and edgelord conservatives start doing the “Roman” salute here?
 
Musk’s Nazi salute will obviously have emboldened hardcore fascists here and in the US, she says, but may have actually backfired for those on the non-fascist far right.
 
“If you remember the demonstration by Tommy Robinson’s supporters on February 1st, which was only 12 days after Trump’s inauguration. We were really worried about how big that demonstration would be, because they had about 25,000 people in October. But actually it was considerably smaller. There were only about 5,000 of them.
 
“Robinson has a kind of broad support, if you like — not just hardcore fascists and Nazis. There are far-right elements that wouldn’t describe themselves as fascist that mobilise for him.
 
“In Britain, there’s a big contradiction amongst British nationalists because of, you know, Winston Churchill fighting the Nazis in the second world war.
 
“If you’re patriotic, and you’re British, and you’re a nationalist, where do you stand on Churchill versus the Nazis? A lot of them feel a bit conflicted.”
 
Stand Up to Racism and the TUC have called on unions to join their events across the country on March 22 as part of a global day of action against racism and fascism.
 
Events this year will be quite different, Dhalu says.
 
“We’re having a big focus on campaigning against Reform UK in the local elections, but also on building a movement against Reform UK nationally — even if there aren’t elections taking place because, actually, there won’t be elections in most places.
 
“There’s only metropolitan borough elections in Doncaster, plus a mayor election. That’s the big priority. Anyone’s got a bit of spare time, go to Doncaster, campaign against Reform UK.
 
“I think building a movement against Reform UK and challenging their racism and their scapegoating of refugees and immigrants and challenging their Islamophobia is really important.
 
“So that’s the focus. That’s the big day of action this year.”
 
Ben Cowles is the Morning Star’s web editor. You can find the full video interview with Sabby Dhalu here: bit.ly/Sabby25. Some of Sabby Dhalu’s responses have been edited for brevity.